Gem Tower Defense

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216 - 2020-06-02, 07:17 PM

216 - 2020-06-02, 07:09 PM

@_mmkay  About great gems:
Generally they worth exept GD and GE, because only 1-turn,
GAq: slighly higher dps than even EG, worth to have it close to mid, carefull with very low range.

GA: above EG(and GAq) dps, good range, what else to say(shame that it gets kills really slowly, only can kill air)

GR: low dps, but x3 targets it's slithly higher than EG, not bad range. U may take them.

GT: quite good dps as multi taget gem (55% of EG in 1 target), higher than GR because x1.2 instead x0.8 multi, and can hit 7 targets, so if good lacated this gem can be helpfull. I very like GTs.

GS: IMO sucks, low dps (36,6% of EG), but sometimes i keep it, it can slow from long distance.

GE: not good dps as single-target gem (worse that EE), good slowing poison, but taking it meant 1 less EE.

GD: absolutely usseles, but you can try get it on wawe 1 on sanbox and have fun with 20k+ crits in lvl39 (easy mode, on survivel about 13k crits)

GO:(no need comment)

i can repost my math comment if you want.

I'm still impresed how good you are doing no-GO runs, 
but leaking 1-3 with GO is a lot, especially with 14EE at 128, i sometimes leaking 1-3 without GO at this point(but always eventually got stack). 
I have 2 pics from my no-go 140+ fails , maybe i will upload them soon as well some 196 pics since after your 196+ run they are not big spoiler.

really 200k+ gold at 128?

Chance for 1-turn paraiba is about 1:12k (unlike other specials), the same as getting 4 the same flawless, so very rare.
How many kills it steal? i know that paraiba can got about 100 kills.

ofc if some gem got x kills it doesn't mean main EG would have x more, only part of it, so it matters les than you think.

"bats were dying too slowly in c1 stun zone", did you have a BO and rage RC here? actually upper EEs dont have to switch on 1 st flyer than come on c5, can on nect ones.

I got 3 the same perfects several times, once i got 3x PT + 1 PE, created GT and regret later (one of my 203 scores).

_mmkay - 2020-06-02, 05:37 PM

@lement Aw man that sucks :(

I also just lost a GO run. I know I said I wouldn't try anymore but I had one open in the background from a while ago and got a GO so I decided to keep it. Reallllly unlucky stack on 128. It's so depressing to watch a normal bat catch up to a slowed bat at the very end. Had 14EE, 6EG, 3Blood, 2YSY, 11Jade, 1Tourm. Repicks were only at 1500 and I had 200,000+ gold. Was only leaking 1-3 in the previous waves. I got a 1-turn Tourm early on and that soaked up too many of my main well-placed EG's kills to the point where a different EG was getting more. I don't know if that would've mattered in late game, however I definitely noticed that bats in my first stunzone below C1 were dying far too slowly for the EEs to switch to a bat below C5. I would've made more EGs there to fix it probably.

Also I see you guys talking about GTs a lot. What's so special about them? I don't really know anything about them. The only great gems I keep are GO, GA and GS but that's just because I don't remember ever getting much of anything else (except in my 200+ run where I got 3 perfect emeralds in one turn :o)

lement - 2020-06-02, 04:46 PM

216 - 2020-05-28, 09:02 PM

_mmkay - 2020-05-28, 06:35 PM

216 - 2020-05-27, 06:11 PM

lement - 2020-05-27, 04:47 PM

Thanks for running the tests (and bothering to add in the gems necessary for that, at that). That 21,77% is way better chances to beat 196 without GO than I expected (hopeless). I guess in late game it might be worth taking a fourth perfect opal to have 2nd black opal to have some chances of salvaging the run.

And interesting to see that not making the BO was better choice - still, 5,16% chance is not much to write home about.

Also, that BOs+GO in mid seems way too good - that's 93,32% success chance, but I did have some quite amazing luck with emeralds(26!) and perfect amethysts(25), plus five great gems isn't bad either. Didn't your algo max out at 90% with several better placements of emeralds shown?

But, timing wise, heh...No way I can do 0-196 run in 1 day. Maybe the last 40 waves?

Also, in retrospect I should record more gifs; it allows me to spot details I wouldn't otherwise due laser-focusing on "buy lives" and "will it stack".

Regarding last enemy or so, I'm thinking that maybe there needs to be line of emeralds on the centerline. Main thing stopping it is needing GO locations and wanting blood stones there, but....Maybe a staggered line is possible - emeralds right after each other are only so-so anyway due 1 gem lag guaranteeing that flyer will be in range of both when the hit from first lands (at least it is better than with land mobs, where I get 4-5 rocks worth of hitting lag in late game.

And ah, now I can see it. @_mmkay: As you might guess, I'd place more of the emeralds near start

However I must say your line of emeralds is amazingly regular - ten in a row, nice. Also pretty long - I leave out the space directly below c3 because then GO can't cover both c1-c5 and those space - it looks like your rightmost EE is uncovered by BO.

That's an interesting idea you have there with ABS in lower right - they're mostly not covering the land troops, so they'll not stack kills. Not bad idea! (especially considering the primary killbox focus on lower right I did on that run)

216 - 2020-05-27, 09:17 AM

I think "failue" is not right word for 196 no-GO run.
Very interesting run, stun zone on c3-c4 could help.
Simulation if you could do that BO without removing PO:
0:1004
1:2242
2:1207
3+:159

,but removing that PO hurts:
0:1002 (yes, i was waiting unltil 1000 succeses)
1:7893
2:11473
3+:4214

not building 2nd BO :
0:1001
1:6546
2:9093
3+:2778

BOs and GO in mid:
0:1034
1:72
2:2
3+:0

mmkay's link is broken , but i figured out how to fix it, just remove last 2 letters.
Both of you are playing better this game than me in february, but have worse luck.
My first 196+ was on 03.02, so over 110 days while got 23 GO runs.Mine GO luck was good and runs have better time,so was possible to get from 0 to 196 in 1 day , even with huge breaks(ussualy 2 days avyway).
also i was losing no-GO runs fast, in 110-130(many not sumbited), so they last 3-5 hours, was possible to make more than 1 attempt in 1 day( if i really wanted to).
Aslo i'm doing other things while runs(plaing other games too), just every 3-5 min start new wawe, but i'm rather not plaiyng on laptop (this game take all CPU for you? ).

That 2x2 EE sqare wasn't ussually enough to stunlock last enemy.

Also one of EEs was outside of all POs range, unbuffed EEs are very inefficient, maybe need more than 2 PO on map.

With few more EEs( and POs) succes chance would be quite high.

lement - 2020-05-27, 04:20 AM

Well, that run came to an end; another failure.

I decided to go for silver run this time - to save myself from building a SYS for more gems. It hurt kills-wise, but did end up needing the space.

I also decided to use Perfect Amethysts for additional damage rather than making Golds. But ironically, lack of gold ended up smarting.

---		95 https://i.imgur.com/JpLURLH.png

Been a while since I've done "circle around the outer edge to reach c1" maze. The idea is fun, but ended up wasting kills and leaking one land in starting ground waves due the time it took to complete the seven rings; the enemies don't stick around the silver just not as long as they do with typical emerald. However start is more convenient.

The ABS was stupid mistake - I forget that I had normal Amethyst already taken twice when picking gems.

The central Uranium was gotten off single pick. Then I decided to make the other one in c4 corners since I already had taken two parts.

The paraibe I  hoped to hit c6-c7, but it was out of range. A more central location would have been better.

----		131 https://i.imgur.com/5v9Y3zi.png

At this point I had concluded that placing those central blood stones might have been a mistake due lack of space; as perfect ametyst strat needs up ending more space. It'd have been fine without needing to cross back into center. Though on the other hand, very good places for perfect opals right next to mid.

speaking of which, the upper PO next to jade was intended to have location swapped with said jade; the upper-right emerald ended up uncovered by opal due that.

159 https://i.imgur.com/oa5qlqD.png

The  emeralds on downline got complete, also got exit covered by EG (though I wish it was 1 to southwest).

Got a second not ideally placed red crystal off single pick along with perfect amethyst; decided to go for first due the damage difference being small enough that extra armor reduction would be better even assuming I'd get third with all that gold (but that ended up not happening).

Also since I got third perfect opal, went for 1st black opal.

----		179 https://i.imgur.com/jvYemhm.png

The Amethyst location was bit unfortunate since I wanted to build a line of emeralds hitting center and rightmost columns, but I figured I couldn't affort to be picky.

Also decided to add an EE on c3-c4 line as I figured the flyers would be dead and by the time the next ones came down and I was missing a line of emeralds in the five groups between c5 and c6.

187 https://i.imgur.com/z7mRvRh.png

Went heavy on repicks since little but PE, PA or GO would do at this point.

191 https://i.imgur.com/lhgY4TR.png

Lost fair bit of gold. Decided to take the wasted turn with perfect ruby(though i wanted an EE two gems to the left), which was unfortunate but repicks were over 4k at this point. Also wanted one EE covering c0-c1 though that wouldn't be covered by GO so placed it last in priority.

At this point and on previous wave it leaked two.

Even with all shut down, autoclicker tends to freeze the game way before this point, but thankfully with so few leaks can just pick gold manually.

196 (5,6 MB gif) https://i.imgur.com/Dz3M3OH.gif

With 4800 gold per repick, I was finally out of cash. Hoped that by taking but not upgrading the BO, the perfect opal buff would remain as it often does with combining jades so giving low odds there, but no luck. Maybe taking the BO special was a mistake; not upgrading promptly definitely but oh well.

Well, that's that. New 195 score on leaderboard in last place, at literally 25% worse than next one.

No GO, but then again its been months since I last saw GO (and I think the total nr of them I've gotten out of sandbox can be counted on one hand) and not like am going to be doing better than this without it.

I guess I shall go play some other games :v

@_mmkay: It seems your imgur link is not displaying for me

Regarding jade, a thought: might be worth doing a line of jade above c6-c7 line, as to ensure they briefly hit each flyer as to spread poison around.

I also used dozen jades, but I think more jade in general for gold might be wise to get better GO chance.

@216: Honestly I think the main reason why the time score is so bad is playing on laptop. WGW did mention time scores getting 30% better just by using a better computer; at this speed doing 10000 runs would require 192 years assuming a relatively high pace of run per week XD

Also seriously 23 GO runs in 3 months? Assuming 50% GO rate, that's 46 runs in 83 days. That's some specs to do a run in only 2 days!

PS: Btw I think the rest of aznist shots might be available in wayback machine; I know I have 160 pic of his run saved (differene being mostly less edge EE and less jade on c3-c4/c6-c7)

216 - 2020-05-26, 04:58 PM

_mmkay - 2020-05-26, 03:44 PM

216 - 2020-05-26, 12:23 PM

_mmkay - 2020-05-26, 09:53 AM

216 - 2020-05-23, 06:57 PM

_mmkay - 2020-05-23, 11:04 AM

216 - 2020-05-22, 08:34 AM

Even if u have most dmg zone between c1 c5, ingoring c2-c3 is not recomended. When too many enemies is coming in group around c5, some of them will leak. So need to stop some of them eariel (no even need to stun lock and kill them here, they can come later to your dmg zone).

So your maze was even longer before, maybe it's reason of bad time score.

GE: i meant that GE can't slow all units, because one ememy get stunned and it keep atacking it. Anyway GE sucks IMO, lower dps than EE( i can repost my math post if u want, i copied it eariel), so i prefer build 1 EE more.

SYS: Even with speaded jades kepping slow on all is sometimes impossible, because of relatively high range too many jades can focus on one emeny, so SYS often is heplfull.
single target dmg of SYS is 3x weaker than EG, so its not important dmg gem in late game ( but i don't mind if it gets some lvls early).

Aznist's run (i saw only that 1 pic) wasn't so optimal, but some of his ideas was quite good. Limiting EEs range often worth, 
imagine all EEs have unlimited range -no reason to build more than 6-8, rather impossible to beat 196( unless very good dmg gems, like uberstone ?)

I will tell more about c3-c4/c4-c5 stunning after you finally get past 196 (I wish you more luck with GO, since february i had 22 GO runs (23 if u count than closed browser run, ),many runs had more than 1 GO, so i have good GO luck).

I was also thinking about local optimums, actually was starting sim again each time was changing something in algorithm, ofc solutions wasn't extractly the same, but i was looking rather for general rules of locating EE, coying postions is sometimes impossible.

You used GA as short of genetic algorithm? - fro me GA = Great Ametyst (GAq = Great Aqua) , so i didn't get what u mean.

lement - 2020-05-21, 11:06 PM

As far as downline got to make second 2x2 box there (with 3 EE 1 EG), though the concept of c2-c3 slowing feels bit flawed, as I want the center to be empty when the fliers arrive there 2nd time - often I've had a moment where I wanted them to pass by faster just so they'll not take up damage that should be focused on leading bat.

Thus I think using just emeralds is not entirely witout merit (but would still prefer EG), given that, as each emerald on target bit more than doubles expected stun duration - so adding an overlapping one may make the enemy go from "darn, they're both in mid" to "start moving after the main ones have passed"

(Though I mainly built those EEs above downline first because at the time my maze extended under them (which meant that the selected EG actually covered more land ground than the one above 2 ABS). Which is fine at last third of waves, but may make getting to last quarter harder).

Anyway, you're right about being able to place the EE above GT (and half to the right so it hits both c3-c4 and c5-c6); good point. GT point may be optimal for area coverage, but it doesn't hit corners which means the EE would switch around. aznist even deliberately chose to put them closer to path and avoided building on GT location or under it despite being able to.

Regarding slow: I've been thinking, while starting slow splash may be useful, SYS is mainly more of a damage gem there due jade coverage (stackish enemies on c5, and c1 is only point where fliers go backwards); plus with spread-out jades the enemies are generally slowed anyway.

And as far as damage from SYS goes, bit of time ago got SYS and GS at around same time relatively early - and GS racked kills up twice as fast as SYS as game progressed. Which led me to thinking 'hey, perchance perfect amethyst outdamages both on fliers'. aznist only focused silvers in center, too.

And yeah sadly GE placement was not ideal here (it should be closest to one or other flier arrival direction due how poison works, but for best effect should put the upper jades elsewhere), but I think it was okish since got on track to 23 at 196 and it racked up acceptable 60 kills, putting it in top six towers or so. I think the strongest emerald was at like 79 kills (also got early EE below the selected EG, so I was quite surprised to see how much more kills the EG got)

I generally try to spam BS around center to conserve gold, otherwise yeah would put EGs there.

Red Crystal: Perhaps waiting till 180+ may be flawed given my GOless run ended at 180 =P Though it also depends on whether I happen to get it early in the lower part of map; in which case it doesn't cover quite as much.

Yeah, not blocking other gem locations is good idea; just was wondering what you intend to do with the leftover spots. Though there's that singular emerald and singular SYS slows are, on the baseline, roughly equal, so may get timing issues with them not included. Also I'll note that your results are based on the high-damage EGs locations; i.e. the results with best EG in exact center, covering c1 and c5, or covering L-exit area + mid would be different. Maybe varying the locations or kills on further test may be worth considering.

Last comment was about genetic algoritm; to elaborate it might have found local optimum for spread-out slow, where moving any one emerald makes things worse, which may prevent it from finding actual optimum that could involve, say, moving all emeralds by half a rock.

There might be some math method to compress the calcs with same RNG; might be worth pondering for speedup.

As for now, got another run going. Though no idea if I can capture when the lag gets downright 'frozen still' (but well, that's pretty standard in flash based GTD), but I plan on spreading jades around more and putting more damage on exit as well as I previously did - focusing closest to 96 BO is not worth the risk from excessive clustering, I guess. Also maybe using some EE only hitting the fliers once, but for long; hebe also demonstrated it (though they used 14 ABS with just 7 jades).

216 - 2020-05-21, 06:12 PM

Jades: i like your jades locations, but having all here is not best idea, since it's main slowing gem(also remember it help stunning). Slows around c4 is important.
I would say that 4 EEs in 2x2 block are a bit overconcentrated, but with that jades its definitelly unoptimal.

GE: making GE mens sacrifice of 1 EE, having 12 EE at 147 is not much, so i would downgrade it( or just keep perfect, unless u got it from 4 flawless, like i yesterday, then downgrade needed). 
GE here could be good for slow all enemies, but because of stunners it didn't work i think.

EGs: they get most kills from ground units, so shape of maze have most impact on kills. Having EG near many EEs makes it lose kills to EEs (which is not very bad, EE dmg is not much lower than EG).
that your EG above ABS was well located to farm kills - range main part of your maze and have only few other gems near that would take kills.
So i'm not suprised it got many kills.
Also having massive dmg in mid is good, so spamming EGs around center is often good idea. 
Having parts of map not in EG range have bad imnpact on time, but often don't have bad impact on leaks - low dmg zones actually dont need armor reduction, however if an enemy is stunned in low dmg zone for long time, it's frustrating.

In that aznist's pic than mmkay linked i also saw zones without EGs - they cause long time waiting for enemy kill, but it's not major mistake.

EEs: looks like u ingore downline competly. Ofc is no needed build full downline, I understand your strat by stunning around c1/c5 - its not bad, but you can also put something on donwline.
I dont see other way for efectivelly stun few enemies between c2-c3 (u made 2 EEs 1 tile above line,so i think they often was hitting the same enemy).

You said that many enemies was stacking around c5 - i often experience it, to prevent it need make some stun zones on c3-c4 and c4-c5 parts(also need slow here). Not much EEs in needed here, they 
just can stun only for some time to separate enemies (and delay their reaching c5 moment).
You could put EE in your GT location, but it wasn't nessesary - other (more or less nearby) locations work also well
(i don't want spoil extract positions/amount here now, actually i don't know optimal solution yet and its different in GO and no-GO runs).

Waiting for RC : i don't take 1st part of 2nd RC before 180, often 190 ( unless forced by lack of gold)

19 EE simulations: i used also 2 RC(for armor reduction, armor mechanic is fully implemented), and ofc GO - in constant positions(also 5 EG with high lvls had constant position + 1 SYS , i think i should make 2)
Rest was lvl 0 in (initialy) random generated positions and was testing many times, avg leak was a score, then best solutions were evolving.

i didn't made other gems to prevent bloking potential good positions - making BOs was poitless, neglible dmg and i harcoded BO bonus to all towers(for this testing), paraiba also not very big dmg.
in normal game u make some BOs, Paraiba and other gems, so i think 19 EE and 21 EG was good replacement of all dmg gems that u would have at 196, actually is possible to make 21 or EGs with low EE gain.
Why extract 21? - i started with 20EE, 20EG,14 jades, then increased "difficulty" its not a special number , just replaced EE with EG.
Scoring very good solutions was hard, leaks are always random, need very much amount of runs to score gems. If avg leaks is around 0.1 random factor is too significant, ever with 500 runs, need more but algoritm work too slow then.

i will do more testing like that - notice that even if i find super optimal poitions, copying it extacly may be hard/impossible. You know sometimes u can't get last EE part extractly where u want.
so need to find many good solutions.

I didn't got what u mean with GA testing (at end of your comment).

lement - 2020-05-21, 11:18 AM

Alright, this time got score posted of non-GO stack fail at 180 (shot of maze at 147 https://i.imgur.com/wu58b5p.png)

Frustrating, since I'm sure I'd have survived without lag from the way the fliers were moving in stuttering motion. Even shut down things.

First new experiment was getting three well-placed perfect opals, and then sacrificing the first for edge-case BO to cover all gem locations in upper half that second BO in mid wouldn't cover. I guess it helped a little, reduced flyers leak from 5 to 3-4. (Maybe should have stopped hoping for 1-turn red crystal). This allows BO earlier than going with low BO then upper one, as there's more gems out of range of best-placed BO that hits all 3 gems between C1 and C5.

{Though the location may be bit dubious, considering Aznist doesn't use it at all, which allowed him to place GO lower and thus fill center with killzone - and of course, his shots kinda show the concept of two lines of EE in upper left lung may be flawed, as he deliberately chose to place extra EE directly on the C1-C2 path rather than somewhere they could hit both. Loooking at shot, tbh having at least 1 jade in lower right might be good for poison as well to minimize non-stunned movement.}

Second was having even more 121+ range gem locations in upper left quadrant between the double lines for emeralds, with land entering in the middle. The line tips by half a stone so that the EGs have the fliers between C2 and C3 barely in range and long distance to hit them when coming down from C5. It seems like the one EG above two ABS turned out to be supremely good, starting at disadvantage relative to the early EG in shot but almost catching up in kills at the time of death despite far less stun in area. Will definitely be focusing more on having that location for EG in future.

Additionally, I'm thinking the GT location should have EE; lots of times I saw multiple enemies go through c5-c6 relatively simultaneously; having something that would slow down one as much as possible would be useful to stagger out the fliers.

Of course, the early first EG was helped around by already having flawless opal and flawed diamond, and not going for maxing malachite early this time (the malachite ended up about 170ish kills; about 80 kills behind what I'd expect, though, so idk if it was worth it).

Overall, I'd want to use it again, though am kind of bothered by last bit of hitting C6 not touching it much.

However, downside of strat was force concentration in the lungs, which goes against spreading out ones' emeralds.

When I started counting "what gems will I pick for final rush" I also ran into the situation where I realized I had picked one too many Perfect Amethysts.

Though tbh damage-wise it might be better to pick many of those, once all bits of path have been covered by EGs. As WGW once states, the initial early combination actually tends to dip your damage, and even without that 2 and definitely 3 Perfect Amethysts will outdamage EGs.

On another note, gratz on putting together AI for it. It's been something I've been wanting myself, but dismissed as too much effort. Sounds awesome, tbh; I'm surprised to hear that you can reasonably possibly get 196+ run without GO, though that must be some good placement. The GO one also validates aznist's running around with large chunk of jades. I do wonder if any of the gems would have been out of range of GO

Also, 19+21+14=54 gems out of 64 3*specials. Were the rest left empty? I guess you could fill it by 2 red crystals, Tourmaline, GO, initial malachite, 3 black opals maybe, 3 lucky specials though this leaves still one unaccounted for.

Oh wait, Yellow Stars and Uranium in centre; also ABS though tbh part of the reason I pick them is gold. I do wonder how regular BS would stack up; though both it and Yellow Star might need to consider lag for splash damage. In any case, sounds pretty awesome; I'll see what results from it. You might want to try to run the GA from nothing several times (or with some seeded start locations) to see if you get same results each time btw; it might be that it hit upon local optimum.

216 - 2020-05-21, 06:39 AM

216 - 2020-05-20, 08:19 PM

_mmkay - 2020-05-20, 03:19 PM

216 - 2020-05-12, 11:02 AM

I failied a GO run in 168, becuse i once forgot to turn on autocliker, i had 2-3 s between enemies, but i lost some time to realize that autoclick no work(clicked mouse button 5 than starts autoclick then realized it no work and i started clicking manually, but did 1-2 clicks less than needed).

I couldn't believe it can even leak 2 with 20 EE, i reconstucted gems in my sim (and set hp of enemies to 206967, but forgot about GAq with some lvls that i had and didn't know extract lvls of EG's, i used less lvls probably) - about 7% chance to leak 2+

i didn't have 2nd BO yet, but most important gems was affected with lvl 96 BO (i had only 6-7 EEs in 96, after that i made few jades mostly EEs).

The game still prove i'm a noob,
i used genetic algorithm (in my sim) to found optimal positions of EE(and some EGs and jades), i realized that i can speed up sim by about 10000 times, making it possible(why that game lags so much with normal speed...).

Maybe i didn't found really optimal solution, but better than i could found manually (i won't spoil it yet), 
but 19 EE was enough to get 90% lvl 196 succes chance(with 14 jades and 21 EGs with 95 lvls total, all gems with BO buff).

also try to found solution for no GO, used 28 EE ,15 EG and 11 jades(that gems seems likely to have), but max around 60% succes chance found.

@lement: correct on wiki red vs o/aq dmg(0.8), idk how i did that much mistakes (4)

I understant that i colud think D vs R is 1.25 instead 1.2, but rest mistakes are bigger, i tested that topaz 0.55 many times and still made mistake...

lement - 2020-04-20, 11:34 AM

216 - 2020-04-20, 10:31 AM

_mmkay - 2020-04-20, 09:04 AM

Reading the code shows me that there's loads about this game that I knew nothing about. What's mana?

Also up until now I didn't know exactly how damage worked for gems. They have a range but I wasn't sure exactly how the range worked. Here's how it works:
let base damage = B, dice (randomly generated number starting from 1) = d, number on dice = n

Lower number = (B + n) * (1 + 0.1towerLevel) * (1 + damageAuraValue)

Highest number = (B + nd) * (1 + 0.1towerLevel) * (1 + damageAuraValue)
So if the tower is level 7, that means it'll do 1.7 times damage.

For EE: B = 98, d = 51, n=2
Therefore the minimum damage is (98 +2) = 100 and the maximum damage is (98 + 2(51)) = 200

I'm trying to read about aura (speed and damage) but I'm having a hard time understanding the code. Does anybody know if the damage boost aura from BO (0.4) and SYS (0.05) stack? I see a variable called "bonusAura" but I don't know how it behaves and all the towers with an aura seem to have bonusAura = true so I don't think they can stack or else you can just get loads of opals. I don't see any mention in the code of auras adding together.

216 - 2020-04-19, 08:00 PM

lement - 2020-04-19, 07:21 PM

_mmkay - 2020-04-19, 01:32 PM

216 - 2020-04-19, 01:14 PM

_mmkay - 2020-04-19, 12:53 PM

216 - 2020-04-19, 09:20 AM

Normal is easiest to get with max chances, becuse it can be combined from 2+ flawed (and it's the same chance for downgrading flawless as normal) . With 20/30/30/20/0 or lower chances flawed is easier ofc.

Imagine how much harder getting special gem was if no "downgrade" button.

I realized someone score today, so scores work and finally submited over 500 score. I think i'm not going to do it again, way from 200 to 500 is long and boring.

Fun fact: 1st my attemp to lose failied, i closed main road, removed few gems to allow enemies walk around, but anyway all got killed...
So i removed rock around c6 and forced enemies to walk away from gems +added normal opal to slow few EE to be sure. More than 1 was going to leak.

Defeating 196 without GO is very interesting, but i sugest to do it with GO first :)  , 
it's MUCH easier, GO is 1.3x more dps AND 1.3x more "stun power" on your EEs and jades. you can say also more gold proc from jades, but enemies also die faster, so i'm not sure.

The fact that your gems actually GAVE you change to defeat 196 is really interesting, maybe it was small chance (around 1%), but was real.
Now situation that someone get to 196 without GO and get luck in 196 (and die in 200 probably) sound very likely, especially with more than your 23 EE (with 190 repicks avg is 27 EE). 
To have more than 50% chance to succes rather over 30EE is requied.

You build 10 jades , i'm not sure if it was enough, but u got many EE early, so i think u didn't had time for jades(and u didn't know that u will get so bad EE luck later).
If not above avg EE gain i recommend 12 jades, if really bad EE gain maybe even more.

I wish you more luck on next runs and wait for your 196+ scores!

I want that "defeating 196 is almost impossible/reqiues unreal luck" myth to be completly busted.

_mmaky - 2020-04-19, 08:31 AM

lement - 2020-04-19, 12:58 AM

216 - 2020-04-18, 09:41 PM

@_mmkay: why you said you accept normal ruby, but no flawed ametyst?
The order from easiest to hardest(with max chances)to get is normal, flawed, flawless, chipped, perfect, great.

I accept 1 flawed opal - for uranium, and flawed topazes - ofc i want have it at last part of EE, but i make an exception for first few (use shapphire).

there is more than 1 (4-6)sqares on mid when i accept uranium.

Simutalion results:
your gems in 195:
0 leaks: 2 (!!)
1:28
2:81
3+:55 (there was some with more than 3, but all of them are counted as 3+).

after adding GO in mid:
0:132
1:29
2:3

i'm still using lvl 0 EG instead ABS(not programmed jet), and didn't know extract lvls of all towers, but even big dmg increase have quite small impact for amount leaked.

So your gems aren't as bad as u think, even with that concentration of EEs (which probably saved you).

@lement: i'm stating only 2 games at once, and around 20- 40 i choose more interesting run, i don't close that 2nd, but do nothing with them, often open new tab(s) in this window.(sometimes i come back to this runs after 1st is finished).

In GO emeralds runs autoclicked is rarely needed afted building BO, leaking 0-2 ussually, around 180 rather no leaks(unless bad EE gain).
In my current run i have no leaks since 140(but good EE gain), so if u can get to 180(as u show, u can get 196+.
Sadly u lost 2 GO runs by bugs/chrome :(

_mmkay - 2020-04-18, 09:02 PM

_mmkay - 2020-04-18, 08:48 PM

lement - 2020-04-18, 08:39 PM

Ugh, lost another GO emerald run at 140...To chrome deciding to reload flash plugin >_> (hate losing runs like that). However, your replies are appreciated, 216!

I have definite tendency to go "what do I pick out of those meh gems, I guess jade will do", though the larger number of jades was partly driven by no GO for 171 waves on that one.

I kinda want to wait with building 1st BO until there will be no future specials in its range that would be outside the range of 2nd BO (would have to go 3 BO with 96 BO otherwise). You're right about ground units not leaking at that point, though in post-40ish ground sometimes could leak sometimes even with full maze, if I lack in opals or other boosts. Though really, I only waited with 1st BO so long in that run due loss of perfect opal with no GO replacement.

Flyers...I'm afraid I've forgotten at this point ^^;; Though I see you did your own tests :o (2 might be bit low)

And yeah I've been doing multiple runs at once after your tip of starting multiple at same time :3 It can cause other bugs as well, sometimes in early waves time keeps running after last enemy dies or such.

Hm, seems first 20 waves we have similar times, but at 40 you seem to get ahead (I've gotten 2k 40th, but they're outnumbered by 4k 40th). Shortening ground entrance surrounded by EG followed by emeralds is an interesting idea. I find I get fastest early game times when I get best kills on emerald; recently managed to get 100 kills on emerald in first 10 waves: https://i.imgur.com/woMdgOF.png (though this was downleft strat maze)

Yeah I pressed the submit button but it didn't go through. Ah well.

Mazes are neat to look at though I don't really consider them spoilers - it's not like one can just go to 196 with merely knowing a maze layout+that you have to focus on EG, EE, jade; heck I've already changed my layout. Tbh this discussion is a bigger spoiler, though while I thank you for the compliment not sure I can do 196+ run - I've lost a 195 run with no slowers due autoclicker being too slow before, after all. Though interesting find about my maze stacking.

@__mmkay: Interesting to see someone else attempting runs; that's very good time - if you look around, you can see 15k at same time and even 24k time by me, and even 36k time on 103.

It seems you focus your gems quite tightly around center. Good for fast killing, but bad for stunning flyers.

I use Actiona for autoclicker; it has function to find image which I use to detect flying waves. Though given my experience, it may not be something to recommend....I do have another tool to use maybe.

Your second maze seems quite good....Though the second chipped special is in bad place. Gratz on 196 score!!!

216 - 2020-04-18, 06:07 PM

_mmkay - 2020-04-18, 05:32 PM

216 - 2020-04-18, 05:02 PM

216 - 2020-04-18, 04:59 PM

_mmkay - 2020-04-18, 04:58 PM

_mmkay - 2020-04-18, 04:52 PM

216 - 2020-04-18, 11:21 AM

_mmkay - 2020-04-18, 10:56 AM

216 - 2020-04-17, 09:07 PM

Those 3 lines are standard, probably best places for EEs, 80-90% of your EE should be here. I hope you know that colums don't end at c2-c3 level, but down line level(looks like you avoid to place EE below c2-c3 l.,while EEs here works well for enemies between mid and c6).

Also building 5 EE in row on +3 column rather no worth, because all(ok,maybe 4, 5 rather can't range) of them can stun 1, high priority enemy making them unable to swith.
This is more important in GO runs, maybe without GO stunning by 4 here is not bad. But i remember once i added 4 th in row and regret it, so i make max 3 in row here.
On no GO runs may be slighty different strat than on GO run, you need analize behaviour of flyers and make conclusions.

Ofc, this no apply to down and left lines(much more time to swith), however spreding EE a bit may give better results anyway, 
BUT spreading also increase chance to stack (and lose).

Making ABS early have 1 disadvantage - they are getting too much kills, and they don't befefit very well from kills.

Anyway your runs are lookig good, mybe on next GO run you get 196+

I play only on survival (i played on easy many years ago, but not submiting scores), i also noticed many scores from Poland on other difficulties.

_mmkay - 2020-04-17, 07:15 PM

216 - 2020-04-17, 01:24 PM

This aznist's run(from pic) was over 196?
His 22 EE positions don't look so good, but simulation shows about 50% succes chance ,i was suprised a bit ( my gems from 21 EE run give about 70% succes chance, did 100 tries, 0 leak: 73 1: 23 2: 4, but still few gems are not programmed jet, and i don't remember extract lvls of all towers ofc).

Concentrating jades shouldn't affect neagtivelly gold gain and help stunning,so its not as bad as u think.

Most gems on mid in lvl 500 pic was build in late game.
But i allways try to make uranium here, slow is important.

By building gems betwen c1-c2 u mean all c1-c5-mid-c2 rectangle?
EEs here are good if the can range also c5-c6 line.(that aznist's 3 around c1 only wasn't as bad, but i don't think its optimal).

Yes, i use that "centre + 2 right" column mainly for jades, + 3 for EEs, +4 for EG, because EG in +2 col. not range c3-c4 flyers, but jades can. EGs in +4 col. can range c5-c6 flyers. EE that range both sides can be only on +3 or +3.5 col., but actually its not as important here, because less time to swith, especially in uppper part.

i'm not German, i live in Poland (why you ask, you are German?, i think u live in similar time zone, so i won't be suprised)

_mmkay - 2020-04-17, 10:31 AM

The long maze wasn't needed at all. I was going afk for most of the ground waves so I didn't really mind if this slowed the run down. If I wanted, I could have easily deleted all the rocks and make more space for special gems. My maze was actually inspired a lot by aznist's old one https://imgur.com/a/atnCR (his images not mine). The position of his special gems around the centre look a lot like what you do now. Although from reading your previous advice about EE placement, his strat seems to block some of the good EE spots. All his jades were concentrated in that one area so I thought that they wouldn't make enough money.

As you pointed out, I didn't build much stuff near C4 because and that's because I was waiting for a GO. I would have to completely delete all the rocks and I was just too lazy to do that. I had built more stuff between C1-C2 so that advice really helped a lot, especially for stunning extra flyers in that range. None of my EGs became a main one, I think the most kills any one got was 60 which is pretty low.

On jade position: I see in your 500 pic that you put jades in the column 2 squares to the right of the centre. You put EEs in the column 1 square to the right of that too. Should I follow this rule? It seems like a good idea to me. In my maze in the 111 pic you can see how those 4 jades could hit ground enemies on their way to C3 but I completely forgot that 3/4 of them couldn't hit flyers between C3-C4. I'll keep that in mind. Thanks for your time :) PS are you German?

216 - 2020-04-17, 08:22 AM

136 is nice score as no GO, i recenly submited 136(135) score without GO, but 21 EE; lose was unlucky(only leaking 2 probably). Few more things:

That long maze around borders(before c6, around c3) was needed? it could slow down run. 
Your maze in mid looks like copied from my lvl 500 pic, but i had a bit longer maze, then remove few rocks in late game for more space. Just don't make special gems on rocks which are temporary maze(just dont touch them).

You may store 1-4 Flawless Shapphpires on map(but around lvl 100 rather no time for this).

On next run also work on jades location - this gems not only give gold, also good slow enemies and help stunning. Ofc rather no worth taking EE locations by jades.
in your 111 pic only 1 jade can range before c4 and no other slowers here.

Also no EG range c1-c2 line(and c3-c4, c4-c5 lines). I often make my main EG in place than you put paraiba.
How strong your main EG got? (kills or lvl if u remember)

if you could get GO in that run it would be 196+ , so i wish you more luck on next run(ofc not every run can have GO, so patience is requied)

My current run is going well (257 lvl aready, no leaks since 140). i have 11 Great gems inculing 3 GO (would be better if i got then in next runs, 1 GO is enough)

_mmkay - 2020-04-17, 07:03 AM

_mmkay - 2020-04-17, 07:01 AM

216 - 2020-04-16, 05:56 PM

_mmkay - 2020-04-16, 05:17 PM

216 - 2020-04-16, 03:05 PM

216 - 2020-04-16, 02:47 PM

_mmkay - 2020-04-16, 02:20 PM

216 - 2020-04-14, 07:38 AM

Actually in the pic that EE around mid are well located, because they are between mid and c2/c3, maybe that closest to mid should be moved right a bit. that upper 4 are bad located, they range only 1 frament of path. You didn't build any thing on down line?(that just above c6, EE here are very effecient).

Ofc you are right with saving gold and taking jade / EE ingrediends
(but you can't left p.e. as last part of EE, also i use normal opal as last part of jade to avoid slowing my gems), in lvsl 50-80 i also save gold and make some jades. But if you have some p.e, enter in danger zone(lvl 96+), and you see that you leak too much, focing EE may be needed to survive.

30k gold with 1700 repick cost is not as much (enough for less than 20 repicks), but rather enough for next few EE.

and create BO around lvl 96 in next GO run to avoid lose. Sometimes i trying to get BO in 96 and get p.e, so i make it in few next wawes, but rather not wait until 108, it's too dangerous. 
Notice that in 108 you need already 2 clicks between flyes, so chance to stack is higher a bit.

Also make sure enemies are slowed on all path(especially around c4), at least by star shappire, 6.92 speed its too high.
Your EEs need to have more time to swich.

_mmkay - 2020-04-14, 06:46 AM

Idk why I made a 2nd paraiba, I thought I needed it for for the armour reduction on ground units even though I didn't ever leak any ground units. I have a 1-turn EE and another 1-turn something so I thought I had time to bang another paraiba out to get rid of some of its ingredients that were on my field.

Repicks were costing about 1700, but I had about 30,000 gold left. I thought that I should try to avoid any more repicks and just keep everything that I would eventually use. I was keeping Jade ingredients and EE ingredients.

I definitely could have forced some more EEs with the gold I had. I regret that part.

This is roughly where I had my EEs, can't remember the precise positions https://imgur.com/a/7NPSiJa 
You asked if I put them in the middle, and yeah I had 5-6 that could see the middle. I'm guessing that's bad? When the flyers first come in horizontally the EEs would stun 2 or 3 of them,  and 1-2 would usually get killed. Then when they come down vertically some of the EEs were already busy with the initial flyers and some switched to new ones. I had been leaking only 1-3 for a while and then started leaking 3-5 by around 90.

216 - 2020-04-13, 08:17 PM

That is why i make 1st BO around lvl 96 in GO runs. Very good time score, i don't think i had ever better at lvl 108. But i have few questions:

- why did you make more that 1 paraiba so early? (1-turn paraiba?)
It takes 4 turns, and it not help much aganist flyers.
Sometimes i make 2 if i got (forced) 2 flawed aqua early.
But even in this situaltion i rather wait until around 150.
lvls 100-140 are most dangerous ussually.

- how many repicks you did? (much gold left?)

- 4 p.e. on map, you couldn't force more EE by repicks?
I often spam repicks to force emerald parts( if i got another p.e i stop ofc, that is main reason of having many p.e. on map). Sometimes woth ignoring p. ametyst (8 EG seems enough for 108 lvl)

leaking 5 units with gems that you had (10+4 EE, 8 EG, 8 jades at 108 sound a good GO emerald run ) is strangely much.
I just leaked 3 in 96 without GO and BO, 11 EE, 6 EG (maybe lucky).

I think you need work on positions of your EEs (you could take a pic, i would say then what is wrong).
5 good located EE can work better that 10 bad located.
Did you build some EE on mid ? (rather no worth, maybe 1)

_mmkay - 2020-04-13, 07:02 PM

_mmkay - 2020-04-13, 07:00 PM

216 - 2020-04-13, 01:39 PM

_mmkay - 2020-04-13, 01:35 PM

216 - 2020-04-12, 07:52 AM

@WGW: Why you don't trying to do emerald runs? You have submited 102 lvl 195 scores already(+idk how many before reset of list), so maybe try something new?. I know that emerald run can be frustrating, but i noticed you fail many runs because autoclick fail - that problem (almost) not exits in emerald runs, because much less leaks.

You just need to accept that most runs will end in 100-130, it's normal.
In my last 15 GO runs only 7 get over 196 ,6 fail before 196, 2 in 196.(i believe that with more experience i will succes 70-80% GO runs)
And GO can be only in 20-30% runs (depends how long you can survive, looks like lement is good in this), so only 10-15% runs(which i don't abandon around 40, because horrible start) - some luck is ofc needed.

BUT at least runs failed around 110 don't take so much time - 3-4 hours only.(+breaks ofc).
And emerals runs are more interesting in general (IMO, at least).

Ofc, you can show pic of your emerald run(s), i wil give you some tips.

Also you said once that you have many question to me, so you ask, i'm often bored and check comments, so i can help :)

Emerald runs reqiues different experience than 195 runs, but i believe you can do this.

I hope to see more names with over 196 lvl scores eventually.

btw, happy easter to everyone!

WGW - 2020-04-11, 09:44 PM

WGW - 2020-04-11, 09:41 PM

216 - 2020-04-06, 10:41 AM

@lement: why you don't make any BO in your GO emerald runs?

I ussually build 1st before 96 if i have GO, because i afraid i got a unlucky stack.
With GO and BO i ussually leak 1 max, sometimes 2 , rarely 3.
Even in my last run which had horrible EE (and even EG) gain, with 5 EE, i leaked 1 in 96 (3 in 100, 1 in 104), maybe 2 GT helped a bit.

i failed this run in 196, because 1+17+0 emeralds,i did even 210 repicks!! (that 1+ mean EE before wawe 20, so only 17 in 387 tries with max chances,it's very unlucky, around 1% chance).
I had over 10% chance to succes in 196 (without few gems, i going to check again when finish my simulator), 18 EE seems just too low.

I see no reason to wait with 1st BO until 190. just build first around 96-110, 2nd arond 140-190, sometimes 3rd around 190. I fell that 2 nd is not very much helpfull, but 1 st reduce amount of leaks by art least 1-2.

I think that lement strat(locations of EE) works well for reducing chance to stack(better than mine).
Chance to (perfect) stack in 96-104 while leaking 2 in very low (around 1% i think), but if leaking more and in later wawes it gets higher. 
I rather was always focusing on trying limiting leaks to 1 (when leaking 1 there is 0% chance to stack :), but withot GO i can't do this.

Being able to survive longer without GO increase chance of getting GO in run, so more chance to 196+ run. 
I'm really suprised that lement survived to 171 without GO AND BO,then got GO.
Recently i got 1st GO in 127 i trough it was late GO...(run fail in 196, 22EE only + a bit unluck+ maybe a bit no optimal EE locations).

Lement's emerals runs looks quite good, definitelly he is able to defeat 196.

If someone (except me) submit legit 196+ score i think i will upload more pics of my runs, i hope more people will be able to do 196+ runs then.

mom - 2020-04-03, 10:15 PM

216 - 2020-04-02, 07:29 PM

216 - 2020-04-02, 07:05 PM

I used your gems in my wawe 196 simulator(i didn't programed some gems jet, so only use EE,EG,jades,RC,and opals).

I distributed about 120 lvls between EEs and EGs, based on shape of maze and my experience(idk what lvl your towers was extractly)

They was leaking 2 ussually, once got 1, sometimes 3-4.

Then added  BO in mid - run 10 times,3x 0 leak, often 2

Then added 3 EE- one in downright place, 2 above your rightmost. - about 50% succes rate.

Then moved one emerald of 2 in righ side (that i added) to place above your malachite - run 10 times, succes 7, 3x 1 leak(once with very low hp, with othere tower it probably even wouldn't happen).

My simulator is still unfinished(because i'm lazy), maybe i need to correct path be few pixels(and add rest important gems), but it work quite well.

So your run definitelly had big chance to be 196+ , sadly get bugged :(

btw, that 5 BS didn't caused big lags? I would uprage last 2.

My times at wawe 20 are around 1000 (slighty above).
at 40 over 2000, maybe around 3000, unless i get BS early , then 20-40 goes fast
at 96 around 10-11k.

Why you didn't submit 181 score? another bug, like mine in 514 run?
I submit all 140+ lvl scores.

216 - 2020-04-02, 05:15 PM

Wow! lvl 182 with no BO?? and you survived to 171 without GO and BO? 
Slighty diffrrent strat than me, but this could be 196+ run, shame that strange bug killed you :( ,i have never had bug like that!

100000 gold left, you should repick a bit more; 12 jades at 135 was enough, building 2 next wasn't needed (unless 1-turn).

looks like it was needed to add few EE in righ part of map, map is too empty around c4, i would also add EE in down right part.

Your maze looks nice, but can be even shorther.
Build 1st BO around 100, it speedup game a bit.
Also that down part of maze is one of reason that slow down ground wawes, ofc that 3 EE on line are well located, but enemies should enter maze around that SYS.

If you removed 1 gem near to your Flawless Diamond (and maybe have BO) ground units wouldn't leak, i think? that righ part of maze may slow down groud wawes(unless you do it intentionally, for more gold)

One of 2 lasts yuor EE is not well positioned(that near bs),That 6 EE between c1 and c5 maybe be too much (5 wans't enough?), i would put something on down line or right part of map.

How many flyers you leaked? (before and after GO)

And how many repicks used?

Anyway u got probably farhtest in emerald run without GO , my record is die in 152.
and you did it even without BO... wow.

You definitelly beat 196 if you don't give up.
That run had everthing needed to be 196+, maybe few more EE was needed, but with your gold that wouldn't be a problem

I never minimalize my game, just use alt + tab.

I thinking what could cause that strange bug? did you have many games/other flash using things open at the same time?
I remember i had a some games(maybe in sanbox) open a few weeks(i hibernate my PC) and eventually some of them got bugged that i couldn't place gems, when clicking "place gem button" i could spam rocks on this button, strage bug.

lement - 2020-04-02, 12:47 PM

Well had an emerald GO run going....On track to 26 at 196, then this happens: https://i.imgur.com/vMjYMmi.png

(Here's two earlier shots at 135 and 175, GO was at 172: https://i.imgur.com/9nSPLEr.png https://i.imgur.com/CG7obS0.png )

Yeah, that was lost; they got bunched up weirdly too...I have another GO emerald run ( https://i.imgur.com/zkiOMkp.png ) with slightly misplaced GO (went to fill a hole, oh well), but not sure that'll succeed; I had to close down other stuff because otherwise the autoclicker nearly freezes game after reducing delay between clicks. 196 might just not be possible for me due that, no matter the strat.

Also had chrome decide to close down and reask me if I want to run flash on another run, that was >_> total of 9 runs with this maze so far I guess, maybe I'll draw something new next time again

@216 yeah, you get far better thimes than me. This run had iirc 2360 20/15095 95/28550 145. Have also gotten over 20k  95 times. It seems time goes faster when game is not minimized, but then lag can mean not getting kills (I once had 50 kills total on Malachite after wave 8...with other gems having like 7 kills, tops.)

For pics, I use imgur (with imgur-screenshot.sh), also have custom bash thing to save copy locally and then use that so I can rename the localy copy with the url I got from it.

GodSama - 2020-03-30, 04:18 AM

216 - 2020-03-26, 05:49 PM

I have few pics, i did sceen while was in 196 first time(while killing last enemy), in 196 with 21 EE and in last run in wawe 500, but didn't upload them (yet), it would be a huge spoiler?

Actually, i have never uploaded a pic, but can i upload somewhere without creating an account?

Also i don't want that everybody will kopy my maze when i upload it, because there are many good mazes that allow to beat 196

i slighty changed maze since since first 196+ run, actually shape of maze isn't much important, only need to keep free space in important locations for EE.

Even amount of EE isn't as important as their location.
If you spam 40 EE in random positions, you lose probably.

My new maze is VERY short, i leak single ground units sometimes if bad run. Good idea is shortening maze during run.

I didn't played since end of 514 run(still keep that game open :), but i plan to get past 500 once again to sumbit score. My time was over 80k, since 250 game was boring, so i will do that only once, then will end 196+ runs intentionally somewhere around 210-300.

btw, firts simulations (actually simulator is not completted, but most most imortant towers are done) shows that defeating 196 without GO is possible, with 32-34 EE, and a bit luck in 196(the same towers can leak 2 and leak 0). 
However getting than many EE, no lose due to stack and having a bit luck in 196 seems much more unlikely than just getting GO.

_mmkay - 2020-03-26, 04:15 PM

216 - 2020-03-23, 10:29 AM

216 - 2020-03-22, 10:18 AM

I realized the game can't last forever - eventually all map will be full, making starting new wawe impossible. But that problems will be around wawe 800-1000, getting that far will last too long and is boring.

Wawe 409 now, time: 62k
I think i will reach max integer value in score(in wawe over 500), then die (i hope game won't crash after exceeding 2.14b score).

Losing in air wawe is very unlikely after 400(even 250-300), with so many stunners(maybe if use opal bug and slow many gems?), i think increasing number of ememies in wawe would keep game being interesting and challenging. Maybe 1 more every 50 wawes. 
12 flyers maybe would be enough to kill me now.

i got 17 Great gems total, kept 11,
including 5 GS (kept 3), and 3 GO. Fist game that i got 5 the same Great gems (even inluding sandbox games). 
Repicks costs over 10k.

If anyone ever will try to submit really highest possible lvl(it take so many DAYS, i think nobody will do this), probably will use "paraiba strat" - it take 4 gems, so map will fill slower(also 1-turn combinations and Great gems wouldn't worth to take).
Note that you can't fill all space except your maze - need to be able to lose. I remove few rocks and block main road in mid of map to allow ground unit go around. I can't see other way to lose(maybe except using opal bug).

What is theorically highest lvl possible? - map is 20x20 ,but checkpoints and maze take some space, so around 300-350 gems is possible to take. with only paraibas it would be lvl 1200-1400, but other gems are also needed, so i think lvl 1000-1200.

Anyway i don't want to do this.
defeating 196 was challenging and give some fun, now i thinking about possibility doing this without GO. I wil simulate if this is possible( i'm writting "wawe 196 sim" in JS).

But game after 250+ is rather boring - after reaching stable point. Maybe always is a small chance to lose, when one lowest priority flyer get far while while all stuner attack others. but since many wawes nothing even readed c6.

i made 6 paraibas to speed up ground wawes - they take around 200s, unless 1 unit get to c4, where is low-dmg stun zone(then around 300s).

Also MASSIVE lag in groung wawes is frustrating - idk why wawes starts ok, then while is less enemies lag more.
Also i remember i had lag when i was sumbitting my 404 run - lad was when click name field, and text typed was removed few times! lucklily i didn't click "submit" too fast.
I think i will wait few minutes before tring to click name field after this run.

216 - 2020-03-20, 12:51 PM

Again 196+ run, 29EE(so above avg), 0 leaks since 140, except 1 in 180.
But i looked at time after 197 : 22464 . it's even faster than WGW fastest 196 time currently on list(ground wawes now takes around 200s, so after 196 it was around 22,2k - still a bit slower than WGW fastest ever time).

i got perf. saphirre this run at wawe 10 , but created star at 18, and i didn't get BS before 30(as i remember), which speed up early wawes so much.
In addition got 1st BO after 100, and GO in 45 and i didn't have perf.o. before(untill 45 only normal opals was buffing my gems, strange that only 4 leaks in 44). Only Great gem that i have now is GO, i could take G. Diamond 3 times(no, thanks) and once G. saphirre(but outside of GO range).

So it's possible to do it faster.
i'm a bit suprised that emeralds runs can be faster than 196 runs with leaking all wawes after 160.

Anyone else is trying to do 196+ runs?

The only thing that is really needed to do this is GO and a bit of luck.(maybe is possible to beat 196 without GO, but it's extremelly unlikely)

I rarely leaking 3 with GO + BO, only if really bad EE gain, so chance for stack around 100 is very low.
The most dangerous are around wawes 120-150, where required distance between flyer to buy lives quickly increase. around 170 i rarely leaking 2(well, i died twice in 160, after 0 leaks in few previous wawes)

My previous 196+ run prove that very good EE gain is not requied.
chance for being able to take perf.e.(incuding combining gems) per pick is around 7.35%.
12 jades give gold for 190+ repicks, 196+190-19=367 assuming 370 picks with max chances
avg emerald gain is 27.2 (i succesed with 21).
chance for specific amount of emeralds (370 picks):

10 0.006%
11 0.016%
12 0.039%
13 0.084%
14 0.170%
15 0.321%
16 0.564%
17 0.932%
18 1.451%
19 2.132%
20 2.968%
21 3.924%
22 4.939%
23 5.928%
24 6.800%
25 7.466%
26 7.859%
27 7.943%
28 7.719%
29 7.222%
30 6.512%
31 5.666%
32 4.762%
33 3.869%
34 3.042%
35 2.317%
36 1.710%
37 1.224%
38 0.851%
39 0.575%

Note: if you get many emeralds you probably build less jades, so also lees repicks, so chances for 30+ EE are actually lower.

Rupert The Great - 2020-03-15, 01:34 AM

216 - 2020-03-14, 03:18 PM

216 - 2020-03-14, 02:58 PM

Rupert The Great - 2020-03-13, 03:03 AM

216 - 2020-03-12, 03:58 PM

216 - 2020-03-12, 11:45 AM

216 - 2020-03-11, 07:08 AM

I very like GTs, they are good. but GE sucks , i usually downgrade it to perf.e.(which are needed). Unless is in good position for slow. But Great gems(except 1st GO) almost doesn't matter at 196 - amount/positions if EE if more important, and most dmg is done by EGs/EEs anyway.
But dmg gems can help around 100 - less leaks is always good.
GO is best? - GO is needed for that overpowered aura(maybe perf.o. aura should be stronger?). but i prefer 2x GA + 1GO that 2xGO + 1 GA. 
So my favorite Great gems are GT and GA (GO is more wanted anyway).

Ofc, before 20 we can get perf. gems only by combinations. Yes it was from 2 flawless(4 normal are very rare). Actually i didn't uprade EG before 22 so i should say rather G than EG, but it was killing enemies quite quick in 17 and 18 (14 kills after that 2 wawes).
But not Smashing enemies as early BS. 
Once i got BS in 15, it was fun. Fun fact: i got it from 3 flawless rubies(20% flawless chance) - i placed fist 2 in bad place for BS. i had norm.a and flawless aq. eariel.

in one run (probably that failed in 39) i got perf.e in 12, buti could get shaphire for EE for long time, it wasnt't fun. p.e. got 70+ kills
i hate that when you combine special that kills are lost. Maybe specials should get sum of kills of their components.

Rupert The Great - 2020-03-11, 05:38 AM

216 - 2020-03-10, 10:40 PM

So how many leaks/EE? without GO game probably will fail anyway.
You probably have more emerald runs experience than WGW, because he is mostly doing 196 runs(i also think he should do past 196 run at leat once). 
I'm interested who will be 3rd person that submit legit 196+ lvl score(also want to talk about 196+ game balance, currently nobody else experienced problem that it's hard to lose after builing many EE?).
However beating 196 requies patience(and ability to not destroy your computer in anger after failing good run).
However,with some experience, GO emeralds runs have much bigger chance for succes than i exepted.

i'm testing new maze - even shorther and very optimal for space for gems.
i died in 38 once - no BS, no perf.o., gols used for repick ofc (but 3+1EE so shame),
also in 39 once - removed rock and forgot to replace.

i'm in 70 now - got EG in 17(eariest ever,164 kills now), leaked 1 in 39, but bad luck before 40(except that EG).
Also got 1-turn paraiba few lvls ago(about 1:12k chance, last time i got it 1-2 months ago).

i'm always thinking why your time scores are so bad (very long mazes?).

Rupert The Great - 2020-03-10, 09:45 PM

216 - 2020-03-10, 07:10 AM

*tab, not window, anyway you did similar mistake to me :(
Did you had a GO?
Ctrl+F3 is bad key combination for auto click.(even unlikely, but possible to accidentally press alt+F4).

I yesterday died in 120 with GO, due to unlucky stack :(
But EE and EG gain was much below avg. 9+1 EE only. 11 jades(planned 12th). leaking 2 in 104,112,116, 0 in 108.

So my defeating 196 rate on GO runs drop to 50% :(

But last(closed browser) run almost couldn't be failed before 200(i didn't count that as run).
Also a week ago i got GO in 104 and instatnly died(perfect stack)
But i got GO in bad place, i didn't know i still can do that mistake(i always stop placing gems after getting perf.o, and place on mid), maybe lack of sleep or i lost hope in that run(generally everything was bad), but i was hunting especially for perf.o. (planned do BO after that), got them on last 2 gems.

But i need to count that as wasted GO run, 
so 4/8 succesed(actually started counting when defeated 196 1st time, so maybe it should be even lower?)

Rupert The Great - 2020-03-10, 05:24 AM

Rupert The Great - 2020-03-10, 05:22 AM

216 - 2020-03-08, 11:53 AM

lement - 2020-03-08, 11:05 AM

216 - 2020-03-06, 06:10 PM

I know that i can upgrade gem before 16. i was doing it few years ago with silver(i was noob, and didn't know any strat, but i got to 100+).
But in emerald runs that 3 chances less is significant. maybe it's only 0.2 EE less and almost 0.5% chance for GO(i got GO once just after last chance upgrade, in my unlucky failied 160 run), but you want to do some special gems fast, like EG and BS.
The only real reason of doing it is letting malate gain more kills before 20.

How many kill can you get on initial malachite after 19 wawes? (if single malachite run)

I only about 120 ussually.

wawe 20 with our RC ofc can be done, no perf gems even needed, just flawless opal for haste,some slowers, ametyst gems.

i don't build 2hxN lane, i do 1hxN horizontal line just above c6. ofc it may be not completed/contain few other gems, but it works well.

ofc before 196 you can do many lines; to beat 196 quite safe 26 EE(good positioned, and GO ofc) are needed. it can be done with less(once i did with 24)but with more risk.
Getting 26 perf.e. before 196 don't requies unusual luck - it just average gain if about 175 repicks.
10-11 jades give enough gold for this.
Make sure you have enough space for EE.

EG armor reduction last around 5s.
But if you have EG near EEs and they will stun in EG range it kepp hitting that target(in that situation on screenshot).

Good luck with getting GO!

lement - 2020-03-06, 04:51 PM

Starting 2 games at same time is a nice idea; will replicate. Also means I don't need to choose between "stun flyers" & "don't stun flyers" strategies XD

For avoiding death in 16/20: You can max out your early malachite instead. This means you'll get less "perfect possible" turns but removes pressure from "red crystal or die" and also puts more kills on it - the initial malachite can hold without RC waves 20 and 24 easily, and 28 with some support.

(Though current game did manage to get past 20 without RC or maxing thanks to early perfect emerald.)

Topleft corner EG: I've noticed that EG armor reduction lasts for a bit; i.e. if they hit enemy on c2 they'll stay reduced past midpoint. If I have the fliers going past the two blood stones, I want all of them have minimum armor. Still, there are better places to accomplish this goal from.

Emeralds: Personally I have prioritized the upper left 2w×N lane over bottom half 2h×N lane.

Advantages:

More time to kill before fliers come for second pass, ground units in range sooner, ground units get hit by the gems between c1-c5 when going over.

Disadvantages:

An enemy near c1 let go there will arrive near the center at about same time an enemy from c5 will; doesn't help as much center killbox with stun.

My previous killboxes have placed malachite about 1 above the upper BS, but with starting with it near the center I guess the bottom lanes make more sense.

216 - 2020-03-06, 07:44 AM

holding off upgrades:
I also often do it in first 4 wawes for next(1-move) malachite/silver.
But they are not nessesary, and i recently get angry when needed constantly reset game due to getting useless 5 chipped gems(that's why i start 2 games as the same time,in 2 windows), so i upgrage at wawe 3.

I often die in 12,16,20. Main reasons: no opals, no RC. I hate when i get emerald in 20 and die(unupgraded DE isn't that strong, maybe sometimes worth wait with combine special).

Generaly having a bit longer maze early and shorthenig it later is good idea, i ofter do that(actually i remove only few gems, my mazes are generally short), especially aroung 150, when you (should)have many emeralds, so ground unit don't get far.

13+3 EGs in 116?
Actually there is no limit of EGs, but if getting that much, i rather use more repick and igrone some ametyst/downgrade to flawless. Buffed EG is best sinle-target dmg gem(ok, GAm is better, but you don't get them so often, also GAq has a bit more dps, but is IMO worse(range), and uber stone win with all ofc),
but they never will be as important as EE.

that 5 rocks with 2 EGs are on right-vertical line which is good for EE(ofc not all of this line should br EE, i don't say making EG there was mistake, myabe upper better was EE)

that EG in upper lefl corner was for reducing armor only, i guess?
I don't build EGs in that places, because EGs have good dmg and i want have it buffed by opals.

Full buffed malachite have a bit more DPS that U235, but their slow aura is nice, sadly range is bugged. 1 should be made i think.
I hope in new HTML5 version it will be fixed (as well as not affecting by opals).

the lower of your 2 BS is in better AoE position IMO, at least for flyers. It range corner, which is important- enemies are closer to each other.

EE between c1 and c5 maybe  wasn't bad idea but it is rather for late game. first positions should downleft(that range 2 fragments), down right(even 3 fragments), around that 2 EGs, around your BSs - that also one reson do build them 1/2 tile moved right, so you can build EE on left(or reverse).

lement - 2020-03-06, 02:45 AM

Oh wow. That bit about jade definitely changes my strategy. No more making mazes, holding off upgrades, avoiding getting higher tier gems with deliberate goals to maximize jade (and minimizing malachite) kills.

Gem analysis:

Yeah I was forced to build 2 malachites from chipped parts :/ I formerly used to go for star ruby in center instead, but didn't know about the lack of multipliers. I try to hold off upgrading a bit for lucky special chances - while I don't like the lag of Malachite, I've figured the chance of 1-turn malachite/silver, less wasted kills and less deaths in 12/16/20 is overall worth it. Breakeven point for first is 4,47 vs EG if armor is covered, 3,65 for second. Used to go for star ruby as well, but that's when I figured "of course multipliers work on it".

Uranium also loses to buffed Malachite in damage while taking up perfect gem turn, so unless I'm going to place that on exit (or 1-turn it) I may well downgrade flawed opal to chipped. Though I dislike the lag induced by malachite and BS.

Silver however just plain loses to SYS as a slower and damager both. On that note, good observation on its damage (also went and checked sandbox that alternating SYS-MBO-SYS-BO the opal always overrides the 5% damage boost and the 5% damage boost never overrides the 40%). I've previously avoided them, but if I read it right might be preferable to build some normally over EG in upper left quadrant once armor is taken care of and disregard bloodstones past the best AoE points. On that map I placed 1 BS in center and 1 ABS near center, but I'm now thinking whether SYS would have been better instead.

The perfect opals were quite well placed, but probably should have taken second perfect opal turn on lower and then made a BO.

Emerald locations:

Yeah the 2 highest can both shoot c1 and c5; in c1 the bats go to rightmost side and then do 180° to turn back. If the rightmost highest was 1 tile below it still could, but no more than that (I intended to put a lucky pick star sapphire on the rock closest to c1).

With the most downleft, I deliberately didn't put it too close to the path so that it wouldn't be able to cover same path for long. Intended to go to the 3w×2h space on the right with the 2 downmost, but perfect opal didn't cover that space. If I could have decided the placements, they'd have been left for later, as placed smack in the middle of road they'll cover same bat for long.

Same idea of avoiding covering too much of path being why there's 2 EGs on the right - at that five-rock line, EE would hit the c2-c3 line and c3-c4 line in addition to c5-c6 line (intended to place 3 above that eventually, but never got the chance). Same reason why the blood stones are not 1 to the right.  On that note, I think 1 more square too low is too low; the upper BS location seems best possible place for BS to me.

The midmost was indeed somewhat forced (aimed for great, got flawed topaz).

Maze: You're right about some shortening; at least the hook on the lower right - it served in early waves, but no longer necessary until filled in. Not sure about middle right but might be profitable to maximize the exposure % to multi-target gems in center. Dwarves reached 5th (6th before).

Later waves also made me think of in the future removing one of the center teeth in favour of more gems.

Though overall I probably will use a different maze next time; the few first 20 times I've done haven't been terribly good time-wise, and the first 40 times, while ok, haven't been terribly special either. The C1-3-5-E separation is natural, but the C3-C4-C5 route ends up being a large timewaster; I've also skipped on separating the exit from start before.

Poison: Yeah, I've noticed that order of operations matters here (has been more annoying when chipped emerald conflicts with jade I've been building kills on). Why my maze has sapphire and EG in upper left, but not jade itself.

Armor: I noticed full armor taking about half damage down, but don't think I've noted down that exact formula.

PS: And looks like my run took the EGs :p, I think when I died I had 13 with 3 more perfect amethysts waiting.